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Post by chocky909 on Jan 31, 2011 23:48:12 GMT 1
I was thinking of buying a recorder and discreet microphones but don't want to spend too much. I was thinking the Zoom H2 and a pair of clip on mics like this.I'd appreciate some advice, especially on the quality of those mics. I'd rather buy from the UK really. Plus is it worth getting a better recorder like the Edirol R09? I don't want to invest too heavily as I'm not sure how enthusiastic I am yet. I do like new gadgets though.
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Post by rob strong on Feb 1, 2011 0:41:27 GMT 1
I've got an R-09HR and it's very user-friendly. I bought its lower-budget sister, the Roland R-05, just before Christmas, but I haven't had chance to use it yet. I've heard plenty of decent recordings made with the Zoom, it'll be the quality of the mics that makes or breaks the recording. I've heard a few decent tapes made with the Giant Squid mics. For a smaller budget, Church Audio seem to be the way to go, but they're a very small company and you could be waiting a LONG time for your mics to be built. I bought some mics from Sound Professionals last year (SP-CMC-8) and have been pleased with them. They were quite expensive but they do cheaper models. The SP-BMC-12 mics seem to do a decent job, my mate Ryan's got some. Amazingly quick delivery considering they're coming from the US, too. Check whether you need a battery box for your mics - the recorder will provide plug-in power but it may not be enough for the mics to function to their full potential. James, Markus, distance and several others who post round here fairly regularly know far more than me about this stuff. Best piece of advice anyone ever gave me was "you can boost the levels after recording if you set them too low, but you can't do anything with a blown-out recording if you set them too high" Oh, and have a trawl around taperssection taperssection.com/
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Post by chocky909 on Feb 1, 2011 2:01:26 GMT 1
Thanks Rob. I'll check that site out. Looks like a bit of research is in order. ;D The Zoom looks like it gets great reviews based mainly on it's price and the performance with its built in mics but I've read its mic-input is a bit noisy. I read that another decent budget alternative is the Tascam DR07 at about £120 and has better mic-input. I don't know if I want to splash out on the Edirol at £260 unless someone can convince me. I suppose the mics are the most important element. I'd rather not have battery boxes or preamps for the mics. At the moment I want a basic, cheap setup. I'm a little confused about what mics are best for my needs. I want to record loud gigs but I also go to see standup comedy and lectures in large halls. I wish I could use my mp3 player as a recorder because then I can confidently take it into any venue and it's just my mp3 player - it's quite hard to describe these recorders as anything else. I mean even taper friendly bands still have security pat you down at the door sometimes.
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Post by chocky909 on Feb 2, 2011 16:11:34 GMT 1
I'm actually quite eager to make a purchase. I think I'll just get the Tascam DR07 for the good price and maybe upgrade to an Edirol in the future.
I'd appreciate recommendations for microphones in the UK otherwise I'll have to order one of the Church Audio Stealth Cardioids even though I probably won't get it for at least a month.
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Post by rob strong on Feb 2, 2011 16:22:56 GMT 1
Microphone - cheap 'n' cheerful and dead easy to use - Sony ECM-719 A mate of mine uses one clipped to his shirt pocket
The Tascam recorder is a decent bet for a starter taping kit.
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Post by jamroom on Feb 2, 2011 20:47:43 GMT 1
I use a pair of Church CA11 cards and get on great with them, but if you ask a friend of mine, he would have absolutely nothing good to say about the reliability and cutomer service. Caveat Emptor, or summat. If you were to buy Church, just make sure you make it clear exactly what you want and and exactly how it has to be shipped.
Mine are run through a Church 9100 pre-amp and into an older Edirol R09. Made a good few recordings with this combo and no complaints. However, I see your point about having one less piece of kit to carry. I don't have any idea which recorders would be best for connecting mics directly - that's where TS might be able to help.
Rob's comment about levels is one of the most important things to consider, also to make sure you know all the settings on the recorder you get and more importantly, which ones not to use.
BTW - don't get carried away on taperssection - some folks on there will have you considering £1000s worth of kit if they get the chance!
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Post by chocky909 on Feb 3, 2011 3:01:16 GMT 1
Hi Jamroom, thanks for the info.
I'm a bit confused about preamps and battery packs to be honest. Would it be pointless getting a decent mic like the CA11s if I didn't pre-amp them? I have a few high end headphones and know that some really need headphone amps for them to perform as best they can. I assume this is also the case with some mics? I'd love to hear samples of the CA11 direct into the R09 and via the amp to hear the difference.
Rob, I looked into those Sonys and they seem pretty good and available for around £50. Does your mate use that unamped? I've also ordered the Tascam.
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Post by rob strong on Feb 3, 2011 9:29:48 GMT 1
Rob, I looked into those Sonys and they seem pretty good and available for around £50. Does your mate use that unamped? I've also ordered the Tascam. Yep, he used it direct into the mic-in on his old minidisc recorder. Doesn't seem to need more than the plug-in power the deck will provide. He used for some long time and got a lot of decent recordings with it. IMO better to get something semi-decent and cheap that you're actually going to use. You'll make a mess of a few but that's all part of the learning curve. Worth taping whenever you're out too - you never know how far the support bands will end up going.
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Post by chocky909 on Feb 11, 2011 22:19:48 GMT 1
Well, I've been very suggestible and gone for the Sony mic, 2nd hand for £20. I've plugged it in to the Tascam and after a little fiddling in the menu to power the mic input socket I've got it working. It's a lot quieter than the built in mic though. I assume it will be fine for gigs though without using the battery power of the mic - I've heard doing this decreases the quality a lot.
Anyway, I get to try this out soon so maybe I'll post the results and hopefully get some advice on how to turn my raw audio into something more presentable.
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Post by rob strong on Feb 12, 2011 0:01:15 GMT 1
Well, I've been very suggestible and gone for the Sony mic, 2nd hand for £20. I've plugged it in to the Tascam and after a little fiddling in the menu to power the mic input socket I've got it working. It's a lot quieter than the built in mic though. I assume it will be fine for gigs though without using the battery power of the mic - I've heard doing this decreases the quality a lot. Anyway, I get to try this out soon so maybe I'll post the results and hopefully get some advice on how to turn my raw audio into something more presentable. If you end up buying a battery box, you'll run the mic through the line in rather than the mic in. Welcome to our world. I would never have believed how much I'd end up spending on recording gear a few years back, but the upgrade in the quality of the recordings I'm getting really makes it worthwhile. Can I suggest that you tape anything that comes your way to start with - taping even a partial show that you're not that bothered about and then listening back means you get a long way up a huge learning curve before you start making recordings you really want to come out well.
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Post by rob strong on Feb 12, 2011 0:03:03 GMT 1
It's a lot quieter than the built in mic though. This might actually be a good thing, as in theory it means you have a good amount of headroom when recording truly LOUD sources.
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Post by markus on Feb 12, 2011 11:50:37 GMT 1
Well, I've been very suggestible and gone for the Sony mic, 2nd hand for £20. I've plugged it in to the Tascam and after a little fiddling in the menu to power the mic input socket I've got it working. It's a lot quieter than the built in mic though. I assume it will be fine for gigs though without using the battery power of the mic - I've heard doing this decreases the quality a lot. Anyway, I get to try this out soon so maybe I'll post the results and hopefully get some advice on how to turn my raw audio into something more presentable. If you end up buying a battery box, you'll run the mic through the line in rather than the mic in. The main noticable difference between the Sony mics and the mics manufactured by the likes of CA / DPA / SP etc. is frequency response. While the Sony mics are good general purpose mics - I originally bought my first mic (a ecm-717) for taping lectures - they do sound a bit tinny if you compare them directly to one of these more expensive mics. Sony ecm-719: 100 Hz - 15.000 Hz CA-14: 20 Hz - > 20kHz Please also note that mics are just one (important) variable for making a good recording. The result also depends to a great extent on the acoustics of the venue, your position, mic placement, the abilities of the sound engineer etc. Your best bet with the Sony mic is stack recording. Otherwise, they will pick up a lot of chatter from nearby. Preamps / battery boxes: The ecm-717 (and probably also the ecm-719) is powered by a button cell (AG13 => 1.5V). So, in contrast to the other mics already mentioned by Rob which need 6V to 12V, a preamp is not necessary here and will *not* improve the quality of your recordings. Either run your Sony line-in (using a button cell) or via plugin power (mic-in).
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Post by rob strong on Feb 12, 2011 18:30:28 GMT 1
As I said, Markus knows far more than me. Your best bet with the Sony mic is stack recording. Otherwise, they will pick up a lot of chatter from nearby My mate who used the ecm-719 tends to tape from the middle of the venue (equilateral triangle formed by the two PA stacks and yourself is always with a try)
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Post by rappard on Mar 3, 2011 11:41:36 GMT 1
I have the Edirol R-09 and it's a great little machine. In my experience you don't really need mics - the built-in ones are quite good. I've used it 4+ years and have had only two bad/mediocre recordings: - My Bloody Valentine 2009 - Godspeed Too Many Canadians 2011 Both were insanely LOUD. Here's my recording of Mogwai 2008 if you need further proof: www.archive.org/details/mogwai2008-10-30.flac16That said, if you have the funds I would get DPA or SP mics - I've heard some really stellar recordings (looks at James) with these. I'm a klutz so the hassle of battery box + mic cables + mics is not worth it for me. Nowadays I would buy a Tascam DR-1 or Tascam DR-07 which supposedly have better internal mics (condenser type), but at the time the R-09 was the most tried and tested solid state recorder (cf. discussions on .
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Post by rob strong on Mar 3, 2011 18:43:36 GMT 1
I have the Edirol R-09 and it's a great little machine. In my experience you don't really need mics - the built-in ones are quite good. Not sure on this - I've yet to hear a recording made with the internal mics that I'd listen to more than once.
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Post by chocky909 on Mar 7, 2011 0:31:08 GMT 1
Well I recorded the Brixton and Gateshead Mogwai gigs but I'm not sure what to do with the files. I know Audacity is recommended - I've only used Goldwave - but I could do with a few tips how to turn my wave files into something I can upload onto Dimeadozen or Archive.org or wherever. I've uploaded a clip from each recording so any opinions would be great. They're both a little quiet compared to a typical CD's volume but I increased the recording level from 5/6 to 7/8 for the Sage gig. They're completely untouched so far. dl.dropbox.com/u/3329848/brixtondeathrays.wavdl.dropbox.com/u/3329848/sagedeathrays.wav
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Post by einzack on Mar 7, 2011 7:25:41 GMT 1
the recordings sound great. i wouldn't do anything else at all. to upload them to dime/archive.org, all you really need to do is track the recording's and convert them from wav to flac format. i'd recommend cdwave to track the recordings www.milosoftware.com/en/index.php?body=cdwave.phpand then traders little helper to convert to flac and all the others bits. tlh.easytree.org/you also need to create a checksum (.md5) file. traders little helper will also do that. so once you've tracked the recording, converted it to flac, created your checksum file of the flac's, compiled your text file, you just need to generate the torrent file - this can also be done in traders little helper, and then you're set for uploading. i dare say there are lots of guides for getting all this basic stuff done, and it is pretty easy. but as for work on your recordings themselves, i don't think there's any need. the volume adjustment is good, but anything else is superfluous, but thats just my opinion. superfluous because the recording quality is absolutely good. very enjoyable indeed. love the fact death rays has become a staple.
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Post by rappard on Mar 7, 2011 11:40:58 GMT 1
I have the Edirol R-09 and it's a great little machine. In my experience you don't really need mics - the built-in ones are quite good. Not sure on this - I've yet to hear a recording made with the internal mics that I'd listen to more than once. Seems quite odd that you rated my 30/10/08 recording a "9+" then. ;-) I know grades are inflated nowadays, didn't know it extended to live recordings as well....
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Post by chocky909 on Mar 12, 2011 23:21:41 GMT 1
I thought I'd already replied to this thread, sorry.
Thanks for the feedback einzack. So, is the volume not important in the world of bootlegs? I thought bringing it up to a standard volume would be a good idea so long as it didn't affect the SQ.
All those other links will be really handy for me when I eventually get around to sorting these out. I am very lazy unfortunately.
I also have both Twilight Sad sets recorded so will probably practice on those.
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Post by rob strong on Mar 13, 2011 0:30:19 GMT 1
Apologies if any of this is blindingly obvious. Volume - I always normalize my recordings to -0.1db. The Amplify function in Audacity will do this for you. Fades in and out at the start and end of the recording make for a better listen IMO. Doesn't need to be much, I usually go for a second or less. I use CDWave for tracksplitting. Make sure the tracks are named as you'd want them to be, then make FLAC files from your wavs. You'll need to include a track number as part of each file name so that they stay in order on digital players. Convention has this as two digits i.e. 01, 02 etc Traders Little Helper does a nice job on creating FLACs, and will also create a checksum file - these are expected to be provided for Dime uploads. I believe their main purpose is to prove that FLACs are digitally identical to the wav files used to create them. Most traders greatly appreciate a text file with their FLACs - band/venue/date/tracklist/recording details etc. wiki.dimeadozen.org/index.php/Main_Pagemight be helpful in preparing files for upload.
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Post by rob strong on Mar 14, 2011 0:42:19 GMT 1
One other thing I forgot to mention - it's worth separating the two tracks of a stereo recording and seeing whether there's any major difference in volume between them. This can happen depending on where you are in the venue.
Matching the volumes of the two separate tracks can yield worthwhile results and certainly makes for a better listen on headphones!
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Post by sianigh on Mar 14, 2011 16:06:39 GMT 1
Hi Everyone, I am new to the board and new to live gig recordings. Rappard, I was just curious to ask for clarification if you recorded the above gig with just the built in mic of the R09? I have just bought the R05 and wondered if the quality of the built-in microphone is likely to be similar. Also when recording WAV is it better to record 48k 24bit? 48k 16bit? 44k 16bit or 44k 24bit? (you can tell I'm a newbie). Thanks! si
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Post by rob strong on Mar 15, 2011 0:53:13 GMT 1
I always run my recorders at 24bit/44.1k Not sure why, force of habit now.
I always post on Dime as 16bit/44.1k, as this is CD-standard.
I've got an R-05 as well but never used the internal mics, sorry.
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Post by markus on Mar 17, 2011 10:52:55 GMT 1
I always run my recorders at 24bit/44.1k Not sure why, force of habit now. I always post on Dime as 16bit/44.1k, as this is CD-standard. Recording in 24bit depth just gives you some additional headroom. So the recording is less likely to distort. Unless you also have a 24bit sound card or a hi-fi system which is 24bit capable (e.g. a DVD-A player plus the belonging preamp), you won't hear any difference compared to a regular CD. BTW: We're still talking about amateur recordings (= made by fans) here. IMHO increasing the sampling rate to 48kHz or even 96kHz only makes sense, if you have access to a soundboard feed and you're going to burn your recording onto a DVD-A. Recording in 48kHz/96kHz and downsampling to 44.1kHz might even reduce quality (as an effect of the sampling algorithm => rounding errors: processing time vs. precision). Having said this, disk space is cheap nowadays and so I usually run my recorders in 24bit/48kHz mode. Force of habit, you know. ;-) In essence: 24bit/44.1kHz should be perfectly fine.
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Post by exliontamer on Apr 14, 2022 20:17:42 GMT 1
Well I recorded the Brixton and Gateshead Mogwai gigs but I'm not sure what to do with the files. I know Audacity is recommended - I've only used Goldwave - but I could do with a few tips how to turn my wave files into something I can upload onto Dimeadozen or Archive.org or wherever. I've uploaded a clip from each recording so any opinions would be great. They're both a little quiet compared to a typical CD's volume but I increased the recording level from 5/6 to 7/8 for the Sage gig. They're completely untouched so far. dl.dropbox.com/u/3329848/brixtondeathrays.wavdl.dropbox.com/u/3329848/sagedeathrays.wavHey, Do you still have a copy of the Gateshead gig available? Was my first Mogwai gig. Thanks
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